The Eat at Joe's Kawai K5000 Message Board Digest Multiple Source Harmonics ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ non-series harmonics Thursday, 20-Nov-97 04:54:06 Message: 208.254.224.181 writes: Just a thought (I saw somebody talking about it in the newsgroups some time ago) - you could get all kinds of wierd harmonics into the series by just using more than one ADD sound. The example I saw explained was a harmonic detuning made by using three different ADD sources, staggering the harmonics between them (each source has only every third harmonic, all starting on a different harmonic), and then detuning the different sets of harmonics (eg: source 1 has harmonics 1, 4, 7, 10, etc. Source 2 has harmonics 2, 5, 8, 11, etc. Source 3 has harmonics 3, 6, 9, 12, etc. Source 2 has fine tuning -7, Source 3 has fine tuning +7). The original post said that this technique creates a really *FAT* sound, but I haven't tried it yet. Theoretically, this type of detuning should be something you can ONLY do on an additive synthesizer shouldn't it? Further exploring this technique, couldn't you also generate all kinds of strange out-of-series harmonics by adding more sources starting at different notes, but not low enough to interfere with the fundamental (and thus your perception of the pitch of the note and make you hear a chord instead of a harmonic). Hopefully I'll be able to make some interesting sounds this weekend and put them up on the site. kenjib@rocketmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: non-series harmonics Thursday, 20-Nov-97 20:12:50 199.86.47.114 writes: I wrote that. The second patch I did that way didn't turn out fat, but it did have a kind of "real" instrument sound. The detuned harmonics seem to break the sweet, clean sound of the K5k. I like your idea of mixing a note with harmonics of another note. I'll try to post something too. leiter@panix.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: non-series harmonics Friday, 21-Nov-97 04:52:18 153.37.9.29 writes: Well, I made my first sound with this technique. I noticed that the basic sawtooth wave comprised of three parts (three sources with staggered harmonic series'), while it should sound the same before detuning, does seem to have a bit of a sharper edge, and a more metallic quality to it. I really like that tone better to start from. It's a shame it eats up three times the polyphony. I'll put a basic patch with the three staggered ADD sources up on my site so people can play with this without having to edit the harmonic levels from scratch. Won't have any modulation or filtering, and only a little chorus and reverb. Anyway. The new sound is fun. The different overtone series' are wiggling around with resonance and creating lots of space sounds. All of the knobs except velocity and decay effect the sound in some way, so this one is fun to tweak with......enjoy the new patch (it is definately much more sonically complex than the old patches). kenjib@rocketmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Some Rambling Theory About the Fifth Interval Thursday, 08-Jan-98 22:44:30 Message: 199.86.47.17 writes: I’ve sent in another patch, "fifth", which is more of an experiment than a patch for playing. The patch is essentially two saw waves a fifth apart, but it uses only one ADD generator to make two apparent notes. Here’s the theory: When you play an interval of a fifth, for example a C3 and a G3, all of the harmonics that appear coincide with the harmonics of another note, the note an octave below the tonic, or C2 in this example. The C3 contains every second harmonic of the C2, starting with number two. The G3 contains every third harmonic of the C2, starting with number three. So the C3 and G3 can be constructed from one ADD generator playing just the C2 note: Take out the odds and you have the C3, now put back (or boost) every third harmonic and you’ve added the G3. So, when you play a fifth interval at C3, (that’s a "power chord" if you play it on a guitar), it "suggests" a note an octave below, the C2. However, it does more than just suggest the C2, it can generate the fundamental frequency of the C2. Any two notes played together will interfere with each other and generate a third perceived note. The frequency of the third note is the difference between the frequencies of the first two notes. This is what causes the "beating" when two notes are out of tune with each other; if they’re out of tune by 3 hertz they generate a "beat" with a frequency of three hertz. When you’re talking about tones in the harmonic series, the difference in frequency between any two adjacent harmonics is the frequency of the fundamental. So every pair of adjacent harmonics creates a beat that supports the fundamental. When the fundamental is missing, these beats still occur at the frequency of the fundamental and seem to "recreate" the fundamental. (For example, I have a patch on an analog synth with three saws tuned to the 7th, 9th and 10th harmonic of a low note, the note three octaves below the note you play. It can send a pretty strong 4 hertz beat thru 6 ½ inch speakers; the speakers only have to be able to carry the harmonics. Sounds like an engine idling. Big engine.) There’s more interesting stuff in that direction -- like the fact that, because square and triangle waves have only the odd harmonics, the distance between any two harmonics is an even multiple of the fundamental, so all of the beat frequencies fall only on the even harmonics, which are the missing harmonics. I think this gives those waveforms more of a "hollow," "dead" or "wooden" sound. I’m putting some patches together that use this. Back to the fifth -- besides missing the fundamental of the C2, the fifth interval is also missing other harmonics; 5, 7, 11, 13, etc. These happen to include the three strongest dissonant harmonics: 7, 11 and 13, which makes the C3+G3 interval a kind of "non-dissonant" C2. Guess that’s enough . . . my brain feels lighter now. leiter@skypoint.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Some Rambling Theory About the Fifth Interval Friday, 09-Jan-98 10:26:35 193.96.226.61 writes: Try searching the WWW for the phrase "missing fundamental", for example: http://altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=q&what=web&kl=XX&q=%22missing +fundamental%22&act=search I can't promise that your brain won't feel heavy again then, but maybe you'll learn something useful from the scientists... Jens Groh ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Some Rambling Theory About the Fifth Interval Friday, 16-Jan-98 07:20:11 193.96.226.61 writes: Hey, Leiter, drowned in theory? Did you try to introduce a nonlinearity? This actually generates the difference frequencies in the spectrum (not only as an envelope). Introduce an overdrive or distortion in the effect chain and listen how the subharmonic appears. Greetings, Jens Groh ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: Some Rambling Theory About the Fifth Interval Friday, 16-Jan-98 13:53:59 192.28.2.19 writes: A couple questions about energy: If you have the sum of a sine wave at frequency 2x and another at 3x, there is no energy at 1x, but there is a beat frequency there. So if it hits something that resonates at 1x, like the appropriate part of your inner ear, it causes vibration at 1x. The energy must come out of the two frequencies that are "really" there--how is it distributed? Same question if you run the wave through a non-linear circuit, like a passive clipper. How is the energy in the original wave distributed in the end product, which now includes the fundamental that was missing before? Also, a math question: Whats the difference between A) the sum of 2x and 3x, and B) 3x amplitude-modulated by 1x? On inspection, the amplitude profile is similar, it looks like the maxima and minima are in the same places, but the zero crossings are shifted. leiter@skypoint.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: Re: Some Rambling Theory About the Fifth Interval Monday, 19-Jan-98 10:31:20 193.96.226.61 writes: Maybe our auditory system contains a sort of "envelope follower". This would be a nonlinear system! Any (time-independent) nonlinearity can be expressed as: A + Bx + Cx^2 + Dx^3 + ... For easier understanding of what happens, take only the quadratic ( x^2 ) part and apply it to a sum-of-sinusoids signal ( sin(a) + sin(b) ): (sin(a) + sin(b))^2 = sin(a)*sin(a) + 2*sin(a)*sin(b) + sin(b)*sin(b) . Now you have some product-of-sinusoids signals. They can be transformed again into sum-of-sinusoids signals: sin(a) * sin(b) = 0.5*cos(a-b) - 0.5*cos(a+b) . and so on. Here are the new frequencies! That is, the difference and the sum. You can use the product formula to answer your third question. Recall (see board digest: "AM"): Amplitude modulation is: sin(a) * (1 + m*sin(b)) . (m=0...1) Here you have again: sin(a)*sin(b) . Thus, if a = 3x and b = 1x, the result will contain 3x and 2x _and_4x_! Jens Groh ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------