The Eat at Joe's Kawai K5000 Message Board Digest Tips For the K5000W Sequencer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Version 4 problems and MCB question Wednesday, 09-Dec-98 22:08:41 209.122.247.115 writes: I have the 5000w, and the sequencer compress data function doesn't work anymore! I used that thing a lot. Why doesn't kawai have a realtime undo in the punchin and out function? that's real annoying. Does anybody know anyway to assign the 4 extra MCB knobs on the 5000w? Ivan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Punch-in with no undo Friday, 11-Dec-98 19:29:24 209.214.60.18 writes: ::Why doesn't kawai have a realtime undo in the punchin and out function? that's ::real annoying. They expect you to work on a copy (this is suggested by what I found in the manual for my shiney new Kawai Q80-EXE hardware sequencer, which I love, but I meander, don't I?) Terry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: K5000W Sequencer Help Monday, 28-Dec-98 18:06:57 209.214.60.76 writes: [MESSAGE TRUNCATED] It seems that the K5000W's sequencer is the same as a Kawai Q-80. [MESSAGE TRUNCATED] Terry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ K5KW Sequencing Info!!! Tuesday, 12-Jan-99 13:13:58 205.188.200.23 writes: Please tell me that there is a way to use the combi bank with the K5KW's sequencer. Please someone, make my day. Please... Alan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kawai K5000 Message Board Re: K5KW Sequencing Info!!! Thursday, 14-Jan-99 02:45:38 207.172.59.190 writes: As a fellow k5kw, I can't find a way either. What I was thinking of doing is adding that un-feature to a list of problems with the 5000w sequencer and mailing it in on behalf of people who have problems with the sequencer Other things include: * No way to change time signature (doesn't work) * loss of compress data button with o.s. 4.0 * no loop based ADDING (I hate punch in punch out because it erases) * No realtime undo in punch in punch out (at least give us that) * No pattern based sequencing options. Those are basically it, and I would add No sequencing of combi-bank. I guess they expect you use the extra tracks instead, but that's not very effective. why even have the combi bank then? I haven't used it because I can't sequence those patches. Ivan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ K5000W Sequencer question Monday, 11-Jan-99 07:41:24 134.91.3.15 writes: Let's say, I record 30 tracks into the sequencer... When I save my song as *.MID, will there be only 16 tracks left ? Is there a way to play those *big* songs from disk directly ? Baker ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: K5000W Sequencer question Monday, 11-Jan-99 15:43:51 208.148.202.46 writes: I think you can only record 16 channels of MIDI over 40 tracks...so it should play in SMF format? Maybe I'm wrong...anyone else? Drew ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: K5000W Sequencer question Tuesday, 12-Jan-99 06:01:40 134.91.3.15 writes: But what about the MIDI-OUT B ?? This are 32 midichannels, arent it ? Baker ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: Re: K5000W Sequencer question Wednesday, 20-Jan-99 12:11:15 152.163.195.186 writes: SMF's (.mid) files support 16 channels only. You can have multiple tracks of the same channel (like for drum parts, kick on one track snare on one track etc. but all on the same channel). So you could conceivably have as many tracks as you like but only 16 channels. Most likely if you are using the "B" channels on a K5000W and try to save as an SMF any tracks assigned to CH. "A16" and any tracks assigned to CH. "B16" for example will be combined in an SMF file into one track using CH.16. It's also possible that the K5000W ignores the "B" channels and only saves the "A" channels when you save as an SMF. Just make a simple test sequence using both sets of channels and you'll find out. A. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I hope they'll be an OS that adds pattern-based sequencing. Sunday, 17-Jan-99 09:16:30 192.100.81.128 writes: Hello, I recently purchased a K5000W and, having done some research on the Internet beforehand, was under the impression that the built-in sequencer was a lot like Kawai's Q80 hardware sequencer. However, apparently it is not. While the K5000W has many other redeeming features as a workstatation, I was hoping the sequencer would be more like the descriptions of the Q80 I'd read. Particularly dissappointing for me is the abscence of anything resembling pattern-based sequencing in the K5000W's sequencer. From what I understand, the Q80 has a concept called a "motif" that can support a form of pattern-based sequencing. No feature like this is found on the K5000W. Because of this, its sequencer is almost useless to me. I suppose I shouldn't get my hopes up since, I'm presuming, the K5000W's sequencer has remained pretty much the same through three "major" OS revisions (OS 1.0 to 4.0), but -- I must ask -- does any know if Kawai has any plans in the works to enhance the K5000W's sequencer in a future OS release? *Will* there be another version of the OS after 4.0? As far as I can see, pattern-based sequencing would be one of the single biggest improvements Kawai could make to the K5000W usablity -- and I'm sure it would make a *lot* a users happier with such an otherwise distincitive product. That and taking off some of the remaining "rough" edges of the K5000W's quirky UI. Thanks for listening, Matt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Copy of an email I sent Kawai (awaiting response). Monday, 18-Jan-99 15:38:14 209.21.202.6 writes: Subject: [Q] Will K5000W ever get pattern-based sequencing? Hello, I recently purchased a K5000W and, having done some research on the Internet beforehand, was under the impression that the built-in sequencer was a lot like Kawai's Q80 hardware sequencer. However, apparently it is not. While the K5000W has many other redeeming features as a workstation, I was hoping the sequencer would be more like the descriptions of the Q80 I'd read. Particularly disappointing for me is the absence of anything resembling pattern-based sequencing in the K5000W's sequencer. From what I understand, the Q80 has a concept called a "motif" that can support a form of pattern-based sequencing. No feature like this is found on the K5000W. Because of this, its sequencer is almost useless to me. I suppose I shouldn't get my hopes up since, I'm presuming the K5000W's sequencer has remained pretty much the same through three "major" OS revisions (OS 1.0 to 4.0), but -- I must ask -- does Kawai have any plans in the works to enhance the K5000W's sequencer in a future OS release? In light of the apparent discontinuation of the K5000 line in the United States (I got my K5000W in a "blow out" sale), *will* there even be another version of the OS after 4.0? As far as I can see, pattern-based sequencing would be one of the single biggest improvements Kawai could make to the K5000W's functionality as a workstation. I'm sure it would make a *lot* a users happier with such an otherwise distinctive product. That and taking off some of the remaining "rough" edges of the K5000W's quirky UI. I'd even be willing to *pay* for an OS update that added new features like pattern-based sequencing. I hear that Kawai still intends to create a new version of the K5000 called the K5000X -- although perhaps not for release in the US. If substantially new software will be created for this X version that adds major features, I urge you, please consider a development path that includes compatibility with the K5000W. PS: For additional comments by myself and others about this issue, please see the thread titled "I hope they'll be an OS that adds pattern-based sequencing" on the "Kawai K5000 Message Board" (http://www.insidetheweb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi/mb22787) at "Eat at Joe's Studio" Web site. Thanks, Matt Arnold Owner: K5000W, K4, K4r ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Finally!!! Tuesday, 19-Jan-99 00:56:36 207.172.90.193 writes: Matt I believe I got your e-mail, sorry for the lack of response but I've been working insane hours recently. Sequencer. So many things could be improved, and what I was thinking of doing is putting together ideas and coming up with as little changes as possible but arriving at something we can actually use! that way Kawai might be more inclined to invest time into upgrading the software. If anybody has SPECIFIC ideas (5000w owners) such as: Add method to punch in measure number (big pet peeve of mine) or additions of functions, and how to upgrade to pattern-based sequencing without completely renovating, I'm sure Kawai might appreciate that so much more, because its clear through the sequencer, that they don't have an idea of what we want/need. Hopefully Kawai will listen because I've been griping a lot about this everywhere, it really falls short of the rest of the machine and the possibilities you have with it. A lot of people use this site and my post on harmony central as a way of evaluating before they buy and I recommend the S if you have a sequencer that you like, because The w is TIME consuming. On the orders of hours as opposed to minutes on pattern-based sequencers like the Akai. (No joke, it really is sad) Other things on the slate (I have to completely think it out before I make any formal proposition) 1) A copy all function- or a function to copy all tracks from measure X to Y. 2) editing by bar divisions. i.e. copy measure 1 beat 1 through measure 4 beat 3, (so you can add a different beat to round out measure for or rearrange drum patterns or notes in experimentation) 3) REALTIME UNDO, I took a slap in the face when punch in/punch out (which for some reason isn't very tight and loses notes) had no realtime undo making you start over if you made a mistake while looping. If this had realtime undo, well it would make life bearable, so you could have a loop going and erase one note if you didn't like it (hold undo and the note, and it subtracts if from the sequence the next time it goes around) 4) Being able to go anywhere in the track without having already recorded there. i.e. I want to record track 2 at measure 198. Well, I have to record 197 measures before I can do that. You can't just go there. more time consuming. 5) Realtime mixing, it would be nice to have a little mixer screen where you do this. I believe you have some like it track initial, but with the great display the 5000's have it owuld be a shame not to use it! 6) And of course patterns! These would have certain characteristics. a) looping realtime undo while working with a pattern. b) pattern copy c) pattern delete d) other things while I have to carefully think about. Anyway, that's what I have so far, and anybody else who would like to work on it (looks like its just you and me right now Matt) is welcome to it. I think the problem is that a lot of users simply don't have a 5000w yet, (I get a lot of inquires into the machine) and i always warn them about it, but the new users haven't really figured out how much the sequencer will slow them down. Kawai, if you're reading this, I can't stress enough how much time it takes to compose on the k5000w. I could really save hours a day in programming with just these functions listed above. songs its takes 5 hours to put together could be reduced to 20 minutes/30 minutes. That lack of user friendlines is definitely not conducive to a workstation. The machine has so many strengths and features that SHOULD be timeconsuming (additive creations), but programming should definitely not be it. Ivan Lazarte. Ivan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Finally!!! Sunday, 24-Jan-99 20:48:01 209.215.4.80 writes: I just thought that a couple small suggestions (based upon my use of the Q-80 -- and now Q80EXE -- over the last few years) might at least make life easier for K5KW owners, since the sequencers are similar in many ways. When I reference the Q80, the same applies to the Q80 EX and EXE models for the most part. First, always work on a COPY! The copy function is so easy to use on this sequencer in bar-edit mode, that it takes me about ten seconds to make a copy to an unused track, and the same to 'undo' by copying that track back to the original. Regular undo features are basically the same thing, they only take a couple fewer steps. This may not be realtime undo, but it's workable. (I just re-record the phrase.) Gee, sorry you K5KW folks don't get the 'motif' features! "4) Being able to go anywhere in the track without having already recorded there. i.e. I want to record track 2 at measure 198. Well, I have to record 197 measures before I can do that. You can't just go there. more time consuming." Second: The Q80 also has the limitation that you cannot simply 'fast-forward' to a position in a track that doesn't yet exist [well, there is a way, but that's next.] What I did was to create a blank template of 999 measures (the max on a Q80), which I used the block ERASE function (not delete!) on to clear the data while retaining the tracks. This one track empty thingy loads in on track 32 the way I use it. Now, if there already IS a track like this one, or there already is an existing track that has measures as high as where you want to go, you simply fast forward in that track or this template 'empty' track to where you want to be, then arm the track that you want to actually use for recording. On the Q80, and I think on the K5KW also, a message will appear when you arm the new blank track of "Frame Sure?" Simply say yes, and you will be punching in now at the position you wanted on a new, previously empty track. A tiny bit of memory is lost to the empty bars you've created to fill the space there, but it is negligible. "Add method to punch in measure number (big pet peeve of mine)" Third: One big pain on the Q80 used to be the fact that you had to 'spin-up' to any measure you wanted to event edit by turning the data-entry wheel a million times, always having to start from ground-Zero (measure 1, beat 1). If you insert a 'bookmark' note event on an empty "template" track adjoining the one you're working on at the point where you know you will be returning often, you will find that upon event editing that quite-sparsely populated track that a little turn of the data-entry wheel jumps you to the first note event in that track, then the second, etc. These events can be quite far apart! Once there, rather than event editing this track 32 you're on, simply cursor over and switch tracks to the track number you want, and there you'll be. [However, if you cross over another track that max's out at a lower measure number, you will be readjusted to that measure, so the adjoining tracks solution is best as a general rule.] This is really most useful for measure numbers over 500, since I can spin-up to lower numbers faster than perform this trick. But if you're returning over and over again to adjust a velocity or tick-position, for instance, this is a real time saver, as the bookmark only has to be placed once. Fourth: For a comparison of features, I've been wondering what might be missing from the K5KW version of this Q80 thing. I'll list a few the Q80 has: In "Block" mode, you have DELETE, INSERT, ERASE, COPY, MIX, TRANSPOSE, QUANTIZE, NOTE SPLIT, NOTE SHIFT, VELOCITY MODIFY, GATE-TIME MODIFY, and EVENT EXTRACT. In Event-editing mode, there are the customary DELETE, INSERT, and REPLACE only. In recording, there is the FRAME insert-recording feature mentioned above, and there is punch in and out recording as well. You can listen to enabled tracks while recording on other tracks, and record on multiple tracks armed simultaneously. In playback, you can enable (listen to) or disable (mute) tracks on the fly. Are any of these features missing on the K5KW??? Terry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Finally!!! (part two) Sunday, 24-Jan-99 20:58:13 209.215.4.80 writes: Oh, yeah, I almost forgot another trick. I use the MIX feature of the block-edit functions extensively for working on loops. I playback my repeating loop on one track, and record the new additions on another track (optionally looping it also if I don't mind destroying my goofed cuts.) This works best if you are in Multi/Combi mode, playing back on a different MIDI channel than you are recording on from your controller (or just don't echo the info back into the sequencer, so you keep your new track 'clean.') I pick my best cuts and bounce/mix them into the original track (though, of course, I'm working on a copy all this time!) This works great, because you not only get the few bars of snare-drum hits you wanted (for instance), but your throwaway tracks can be assigned to other drum sounds with the NOTE-SHIFT or TRANSPOSE functions and thus be recycled for use in other, often exciting ways. Terry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Version 5? and Thanks! Monday, 25-Jan-99 23:14:17 207.172.44.76 writes: Thanks Terry! Those actually were some very helpful hints. I'm going to have to learn to love my sequencer. At least I can say the sequencer itself is pretty tight. If it came down to it, Kawai only really need 2 things. 1) Realtime undo, in punch-in punch out mode (with an option to overdub) 2) and a "copy all tracks" function in the copy. those are the essentials. I could live without the rest of the "wishlist". (actually you also need quick measure access) Besides that though, nothing. Howie Shen at product support says the idea of another upgrade for the k5000 is an open question. Imagine Version 5 for the 5000! Only time will tell... Ivan. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------