The Eat at Joe's Kawai K5000 Message Board Digest SoundDiver and K5000 Bugs ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sound Diver Mixes Up Odds and Evens Thursday, 20-Nov-97 20:04:40 Message: 199.86.47.114 writes: The SoundDiver edit groups for odd harmonics and even harmonics are mixed up; the labels should be switched. The front panel has it right. leiter@skypoint.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Version 3.0 Bug? Friday, 28-Nov-97 17:35:33 Message: 152.163.207.37 writes: I use the K5000S, and after installing the new 3.0 operating system, I've noticed that sometimes when playing an arpeggiator, a note will drone (even after the arpeggiator is turned off) until I find the note that is stuck and press it, or until I switch the patch. Is this a bug in 3.0, or is there something wrong with my OS disk or the synth itself? euporia420@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ resynthsis through SoundDive Monday, 08-Dec-97 05:35:53 Message: 205.134.227.26 writes: I just got my k5000 and here's my first round o questions . . . I've been reading message posted to Analogue Heaven about the K5000 resynthesizing samples into additive patches. Is this true? How do you do it? I've got the Sound Diver K5000 edition that came with it and the Memory Exapansion and I can't figure it out. Also can you change the Resonance while holding down a note? The Resonance macro knob only seems to work after you retrigger a key, however if you assign Resonance as one of the destinations of the User Macro knobs then it seems you can modulate Resonance while holding down a note. Is this right? Is there a multi-mode on the thing. Is the only way to achieve multi-timbrality through setting up multi-patches? Mike btw ->Music Central $995 with ME-1 and 4 patch disks K5000S michael@bonanno.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: Re: Re: What Does K5k Do Best? Friday, 19-Dec-97 04:26:16 193.96.226.61 writes: Attention - a while ago the operation system files on the Kawai US server were corrupt! (Are they still?) You better take those from the Kawai Australia server. Jens. Jens Groh ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SoundDiver Fix List Sunday, 21-Dec-97 22:40:30 Message: 199.86.47.2 writes: In no order: 1) The "5ths" edit group is a random group of overtones--none of them are fifths, and they don't have any relationship to each other. The "Octaves" group is correct. 2) If you open another program while running SoundDiver in Windows 95, the only way to get SoundDiver back is to minimize everything else. Don't click on the button on the bottom bar or SoundDiver goes comatose; you have to Ctrl-Alt-Del to shut it down and then restart it. 3) Anyone know how to stop the thing from cutting out for backup every two minutes? 4) If you're in a number box, how about letting you enter a number by typing a number? Instead, the number keys are being used as hot keys for some reason, so you go flying all over the program. Very anti-intuitive. Also, like I posted before, 5) The "evens" and "odds" edit groups are misnamed: switch the names. I was going to call this a gripe list, but considering how well the K5k and SoundDiver do work, I'm not that bitter. For something so complicated it's amazing how accesible it is. Can't think of any complaints with the K5k! Although . . . it would be nice to be able to expand the PCM library. leiter@skypoint.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: SoundDiver Fix List Monday, 05-Jan-98 14:51:08 194.96.109.23 writes: 3) Anyone know how to stop the thing from cutting out for backup every two minutes? Open the Parameter Menu. There is a line for Backup Delay (s). blank it Tommy / tommy_wollner@computer2000.at ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ KS Pitch and "stretch" tuning Friday, 30-Jan-98 14:48:54 130.67.0.151 writes: First of all, does anyone know what is the pivot note for normal Key Scale? Is it C4 (middle C, one-line C)? I cannot find this documented in the manual. Then, under DCO, page 30, it says that KS Pitch can be used to play in quarter- tones, or to add "stretch" to the tuning. Quarter-tones work fine, but I cannot see that "stretch" is possible. Is this a bug in the opsys or a bug in the manual? Or am I missing something? Tore tl001@online.no ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: KS Pitch and "stretch" tuning Friday, 30-Jan-98 15:55:07 192.28.2.19 writes: It's not in front of me, but I know there's a setting for how much the pitch increases as you move up the keyboard. Usually it's set 1:1, but for a constant pitch it would be 1:0 and for quartertones it would be 1:2. Stretch tuning would be something like 1:1.01; I don't know exactly. leiter@skypoint.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: KS Pitch and "stretch" tuning Monday, 02-Feb-98 12:48:29 130.67.64.84 writes: Well, I cannot find the setting that leiter is talking about, so I want to stress that this question is unanswered. Tore tl001@online.no ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: KS Pitch and "stretch" tuning Tuesday, 03-Feb-98 04:17:09 208.254.230.81 writes: Playing around with it, the only alternate interval between notes I can get out of the K5000 is in the range of 0 - 50 cents, which is really much less useful than it should be. I'll make sure to adding stretch tuning to the wishlist when I get around to creating it. Also, a quick check for the "pivot note", if I understand you correctly, gives me (oddly enough) the "E3" note. That means, if I put the K5000 in fixed note mode and set it to E3, I can change the "KS Pitch" parameter and the pitch doesn't change (which doesn't happen with any other key). -Kenji ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: KS Pitch and "stretch" tuning Tuesday, 03-Feb-98 17:14:52 130.67.65.228 writes: About "stretch" tuning on the wishlist - this item should really be on the bug list. Because, unless I have overlooked something there is a clear discrepancy between the manual and the K5000 here. Tore tl001@online.no ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: KS Pitch and "stretch" tuning Tuesday, 03-Feb-98 17:51:24 192.28.2.19 writes: Once again, I don't have it in front of me, but I looked at the Sound Diver screen the other night and it looked like you could set both the pivot note and the interval. The controls are the two boxes on the Sound Diver screen that are above the boxes that have the pitch envelope values. This would let you fix a constant note (a drone) on any note. leiter@skypoint.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: KS Pitch and "stretch" tuning Tuesday, 03-Feb-98 23:39:15 153.37.9.251 writes: I just checked it to make sure, but the Sound Diver settings do exactly the same thing as the settings in the K5000. The constant note can be changed, but the key on the keyboard which the key scaling diverges from is the E3 key (E3 is the key which will actually play the constant note and from which the note values of other keys can be calculated). Also, the key scaling still only goes up to a maximum of 50 cents - a quartertone. It looks like the K5000 can't do stretch at all! -Kenji ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Rates in the guise of time values Monday, 02-Feb-98 04:01:54 130.67.1.177 writes: leiter@skypoint.com wrote: QUOTE Also, re the envelope parameters: it helped when I figured out that the time parameter is a rate, not a duration. If you change the level and you want the duration to stay the same, you have to change the rate to match. I don't know which way would be better, but there it is. UNQUOTE The time parameters seem to be some sort of inverse rates. Here's my latest experiment with the DCA Envelope. Set Decay1 Time and Decay1 Level to the values below and set the other parameters to 0. Trying to measure time by counting beats for the duration of the tone, I get the following results: D1T D1L Time Proportion 127 124 11 1/2 126 124 7 1/3 125 124 5 1/4 124 124 4 1/5 The resulting time function is probably more sophisticated than the simple fractions I have listed above, but it does look as if Time is proportional to 1/(129 - D1T). Anyone got a better idea or more solid information? In any case, Time appears to be proportianal to (127 - D1L), so "rate" is probably the right word, as leiter says. Tore tl001@online.no ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Rates in the guise of time values Monday, 02-Feb-98 11:25:13 193.96.226.61 writes: Hmm... this throws a different light on the DCA envelopes. Is it the same "rate algorithm" as in the ADD/DHL envelopes after all? How can they keep the envelope on a constant value then? Can they? - I didn't test it. (See "Rate parameters of harmonics envelopes" thread.) There is another similarity of these envelope generators: I observed that both the DCA_Key_Scale_To_Envelope_Level and the ADD_DHL_Key_Scale_To_Gain parameter seemingly do not function (at least in some cases). Is this a bug? - What do you think? Jens Groh ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: Rates in the guise of time values Monday, 02-Feb-98 12:46:15 130.67.64.84 writes: Yes, I have also noticed that some of the Key Scale parameters apparently do not function or have a function different from what is intended. I am trying to test it all systematically. Meanwhile, have any of you found a way to translate DCA Envelope settings into Harmonic Envelope settings? Not to mention a similar translation for the DCF Envelope. Figuring out this machine will take some time... Tore tl001@online.no ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Why can't I save LOCAL setting? Tuesday, 03-Feb-98 13:18:41 134.141.111.201 writes: I'd like to keep the LOCAL setting OFF, but it resets to ON every time I power down. Are you guys manually turning it OFF for every sequence session? Even the K4 retained the LOCAL setting on power down. thanks -Brian bchampig@ctron.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ KS to Gain once again Sunday, 15-Feb-98 08:25:32 130.67.1.73 writes: Experimenting with a piano sound, I just could not understand why the tone was so mellow. After careful comparison with other sources I finally found the culprit: KS to Gain in the DHL Common screen was set to +45. Reducing it to 0 or some negative value cleared up the sound and brought back the high harmonics. This has been mentioned before, but some explanation for things like these is on the very TOP of the wishlist as far as I am concerned. Is there anything in the words "KS to Gain" to tell any of you that this is really a brightness control? Whether or not this is a bug is not my prime concern. What I want is DOCUMENTATION so that I don't have to waste time on things like that. Besides info on "hidden features" like this one, we sorely need some documentation on the finer details of rates and levels. It is probably too late to ask for times instead of rates, but if there is some free program memory left for extra features, I wish Kawai would let us have parallel screens with times (possibly logaritmic ones) in them. Tore tl001@online.no ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you hear these bugs? Saturday, 21-Feb-98 12:52:47 130.67.64.133 writes: Some of you may have downloaded and tried Kenji's Hammond patch. If I play this patch, there is a curious variation in the amount or amplitude of the low harmonics. Play e.g. the note C5 (i.e. two-line C) over and over again. What I hear is not a constant tone, but a random fluctuation between C5 and C6. That is, the low harmonics seem to drop out once in a while. This phenomenon appears to occur only if at least two of the three voices in Hammond are active. I cannot make it happen with one voice only. Do you hear the same thing? This seems like a bug to me. Another bug that some of you may have noticed is that the effects are not active immediately when you pick a new patch. They come only on the second note played. Do you hear this too? Tore tl001@online.no ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Do you hear these bugs? Sunday, 22-Feb-98 17:51:12 153.37.9.106 writes: I don't seem to notice this phenomenon. Can anyone else verify this problem? What I do hear is that if you hit the note harder, I think it's the octave harmonic that get's louder, although I don't notice any change in the basic frequency. This makes the note a tiny bit brighter at harder velocities, although really it's barely perceptible. My K5000 also has a broken right output though so maybe it's a problem with stereo imaging that I can't hear (even though this seems unlikely)? About the reverb problem, really this is something I've noticed is common for digital processors. It's not that it waits for a second note, but that it takes the effects unit a bit of time to load the new effects settings into memory and initialize them, or something like that. My Ensoniq DP/2 effects processor does the same thing. This means that if you want to be able to change patches immediately on the K5000 you really need to do something with the multi-mode, the problem here of course being that all of the sounds run through the same effects (although they can take different paths, but you still need to reprogram all of the effects). My opinion is that this is a completely unsolvable problem that you will encounter on most devices with digital processing. -Kenji ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: Do you hear these bugs? Monday, 23-Feb-98 13:47:24 130.67.66.203 writes: Well, thanks for checking anyway. I have listened more carefully and it sounds as if any of the first few partials drop out at irregular intervals, for no reason at all. Very odd. I first noticed it when playing this patch. Tore tl001@online.no ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Do you hear these bugs? Wednesday, 04-Mar-98 04:41:14 194.172.230.108 writes: I reduced the patch ("Hammond2") to the bare essentials: I retained source 1 and 2 only, switched all effects off, set the effect control depth to zero - and could hear that phenomenon even better than before! My explanation: The dynamic voice (or "source") assignment of the synthesis software starts the 2 sources with a little delay. This delay is not constant, so the phase relations between the sources vary from note to note. In this case, the sources 1 and 2 are identical, so some harmonics may easily be cancelled by the phase shift, each time different ones. Maybe even the fundamental. Now make an experiment: Detune one of the 2 sources slightly. All kinds of phase cancelations will occur, and you will hear very strong timbre changes. Greetings, Jens Jens Groh ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: Do you hear these bugs? Thursday, 05-Mar-98 09:22:20 130.67.1.253 writes: This sounds reasonable. Another point worth mentioning in the new, improved manual. tl001@online.no ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: MORF as built-in envelope calculator Thursday, 05-Mar-98 10:25:20 130.67.2.216 writes: It seems to me that the MORF time scale is a "real" time scale, and that it DOES solve the rate/time conversion problem. To the extent that I have been able to test it, the rates are set so that the implicit "time load" of changing levels is taken into account. In fact, if you let one harmonic have the same value from one time slice to the next, it will even take care to set the corresponding levels in the HLE to two different values in order to avoid the skipping of stages that occurs when subsequent levels have the same value. But there appear to be some bugs in the MORF function. In particular, the Harmonics Levels of the MORFing source are sometimes set correctly, sometimes not. This will be corrected in the next version of the OS, I am sure... And it's a hassle that you have to save the sources before you execute the MORF. I wish the K5000 would read the sources being edited rather than the old version in flash memory. At least, the rate/time thing seems to be handled satisfactorily by the MORF function. Tore tl001@online.no ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ What-I-Found-Out #2: FF Bias / Poly Mode Dependency Saturday, 14-Mar-98 06:40:09 195.232.50.106 writes: The Formant Filter is transposed together with the played note if you play 'legato' and the POLY mode is set to SOLO2. Even though this pitch tracking may be useful in a few cases, it is mostly annoying. You can hear it on my "Simoog" patch. I think this problem is a candidate for our 'update wishlist'. Jens Groh ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Problem: KSing the FF Saturday, 14-Mar-98 12:33:20 199.86.40.88 writes: I've been trying to put together a patch where the FF is keyscaled 1:1 to the keyboard, so that going up a half step on the keyboard raises the FF a half step. (I want to do this while fixing the pitch of the ADD). The KS for FF depth doesn't seem to stretch far enough. Any ideas? leiter@skypoint.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ K5000s as a controller... Monday, 20-Apr-98 16:59:41 128.222.14.36 writes: Is anyone able to use the k5000s as a controller, while using local off to still sequence the internal sounds? It seems that local off doesn't even work in multi mode, and in single mode, changing the MIDI channel changes the response as well as transmit channel. This basically makes local off a useless function... pescator@cs.unc.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: K5000s as a controller... Tuesday, 21-Apr-98 23:09:37 209.70.50.133 writes: umm.... the question is, what are you using for sequencing? i have spent a little time with Troy at Kawai discussing the drawbacks with using the k5ks as a controller. i just bought a Matrix 6 to use instead. i'm using cubase. when i had the k5ks as the master controller, i disable local on, and would select which midi channel i wanted to control in cubase. oddly enough, i could assign the k5ks multi parts to any midi channel though the "leaflet" that comes with it says they must be the base channel plus the 3 following it. it does not make for a good controller (it pissed on my idea!) so get a Matrix 6. i picked mine up for $300 plus another $15 to upgrade the ROM. yippie. -steve velure ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SoundDiver Fix Friday, 01-May-98 12:06:04 192.28.2.16 writes: If you're having problems with SoundDiver freezing up in Win95, set the automatic backup time to maximum. This has eliminated most of my freeze-ups. They seem to be triggered when the program tries to backup while minimized, or while the screen saver is on, or other conditions. leiter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------