The Eat at Joe's Kawai K5000 Message Board Digest Aftertouch Sensitivity ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Q] After-touch too sensitive? Sunday, 17-Jan-99 02:48:31 192.100.81.117 writes: Hi, I just got one of the K5000W units being closed out by Musician's Fiend. I am very pleased with how it sounds. I've downloaded and installed OS 4.0 and the unit appears to be operating fine. However, regardless of the OS installed, I've found that the after-touch on the keyboard is too senstive to be truly useful. It seems to jump from 0 to 127 as soon as the slightest pressure is registered. I also own a Kawai K4 and interestingly, its AT response differs drastically. The K4 requires very hard pressue to reach the full value of 127. Thus, in between, there is a lot of expressive control. For an example of this kind of "forgiving" type of AT response (if you have a K4), try the factory patch "Warmth" (program "ID-5" in my K4). So, I am dissappionted that the K5000 doesn't offer the same type of response. It's so sensitive, it's virtually impossible to be at all expressive with AT while simultaneously trying to play something! I've tried adjusting some of the AT parameters in particular patches to no avail. For an example of this kind of "unforgiving" K5000W response, try the factory patch "WheelPad" (in OS 1.0, this is program "A035"). In fact, since it's a similar "paddy"-type sound, this a good comparison with the K4's "Warmth". Anyway, is "hyper-sensitive" AT response a known "feature" with the K5000W? Is there a fix or mod? PS: If your K5000W doesn't seem to behave as I've described above, I'd like to hear about that as well. Perhaps I got a "bum" unit? Thanks, Matt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive? Sunday, 17-Jan-99 06:27:26 24.130.39.28 writes: I have a K5000s, and the same complaint. Love the sounds, the keyboard (velocity) action, the knobs! *Hate* the aftertouch. If it weren't for that it would be practically perfect (sigh). Woodie Bud ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive? Sunday, 17-Jan-99 10:47:49 199.199.157.34 writes: It does have values between 0 and 127, they're just a little hard to find. leiter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive? Sunday, 17-Jan-99 10:49:15 199.199.157.34 writes: on the other hand, the velocity response seems to be very nicely spread out. leiter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive? Sunday, 17-Jan-99 22:27:50 192.100.81.125 writes: >It does have values between 0 and 127, they're just a little hard to find. Well, yes, that was basically the point of my first posting. The K5000W's after-touch response is way too sensitive to be useful. I realize it's *possible* to get AT values between 0 and 127 out of the K5000W's keybaord, but I've found it requires too much concentration. I can't possibly be actually *playing* anything while I simultaneously try to get just the right amount of pressue to produce an AT value *other* than 0 or 127. I've tried various patches and actually changing their AT parameters myself, with no real change in the keyboard's sensitivity. The problem seems to be the keyboard itself. Can anything be done about this? Is there a fix or mod? How could Kawai or their K5000W's beta-testers have missed such a basic problem? Thanks, Matt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive? Monday, 18-Jan-99 09:57:20 209.30.58.187 writes: Here Here. I agree totally. I love the board and I spent a long time trying all the interesting new keyboards. It came down to the K5000. If the aftertouch worked a little better if it was a little more cushier it would be the perfect board. Anyway I emailed Kawai about the problem and they tried to play it off as a great new feature, and that they thought it was the most expressive aftertouch they had ever seen. Whatever. PS they should have put syncd lfo's in there someware Aaron ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Copy of an email I sent to Kawai (awaiting reponse). Monday, 18-Jan-99 15:37:04 209.21.202.6 writes: Subject: [Q] K5000W after-touch too sensitive? Hello, I just got one of the K5000W units being closed out by Musician's Fiend. I am very pleased with how it sounds. I've downloaded and installed OS 4.0 (from Kawai Australian's Web site, BTW -- you guys should get your site's act together, you know) and the unit appears to be operating fine. However, regardless of the OS installed, or what patch is selected, I've found that the after-touch on the keyboard is too sensitive to be truly useful. It seems to jump from 0 to 127 very quickly as soon as the slightest pressure is registered. I also own a Kawai K4 and interestingly, its AT response differs drastically. The K4 requires very hard pressure to reach the full value of 127. Thus, in between, there is a lot of expressive control. For an example of this kind of "forgiving" AT response (if you have a K4 handy), try the factory patch "Warmth" (program "IC-5" on my K4). So, I am disappointed that the K5000W doesn't have the type of response. It's so sensitive, it's virtually *impossible* to be at all expressive with AT while simultaneously trying to play something! I've tried adjusting some of the AT parameters in particular patches to no avail. For an example of this kind of "unforgiving" response, try the factory patch "WheelPad" (in OS 1.0, this is program "A035"). In fact, because "WheelPad" is a similar "paddy"-type sound, this a good comparison with the K4's "Warmth". Anyway, is "hyper-sensitive" AT response a known "feature" with the K5000W? Is there a fix or mod? I like the K5000W in most other aspects, but its keyboard is virtually useless for AT expression. As I had intended to use the K5000W as my main "controller", the lack of expressive control over AT is a shame. If the K5000W isn't supposed to behave as I've described above, I'd like to hear about that. Perhaps I got a "bum" unit? PS: For additional comments by myself and others (including some regarding a previous reply from Kawai) about this issue, please see the thread titled "[Q] After-touch too sensitive?" on the "Kawai K5000 Message Board" (http://www.insidetheweb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi/mb22787) at "Eat at Joe's Studio" Web site. Thanks, Matt Arnold Owner: K5000W, K4, K4r ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Got a response from Kawai... Thursday, 21-Jan-99 20:51:58 209.21.202.6 writes: Welp... In an email conversation I had with Kawai America's Product Specialist Troy Reigleman, he said (and I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him). "Regarding the 'extra-sensitivity' of the aftertouch, I did go to the message board and read the other complaints. Sorry, but there is not a way to change this - I just checked with our service manager to see about a modification." Then, just to be sure, I had him clarify that... "Correct - no fix for the AT sensing." Sorry kids. Matt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive? Wednesday, 20-Jan-99 20:18:14 12.79.51.42 writes: Hello, I actually very much like the aftertouch of the K5K keyboard. It feels about the same as a Clavichord and I have always relied on the degree to which I map aftertouch to its destination to limit the AT depth. One of the reasons I like electronic instruments is that they do not have mechanisms like the Piano Action or a Tracker Organ Action. All of our modern keyboards started with the Clavichord. That gave rise to Harpsichord which in turn gave rise to the Piano. The first Piano was actually called "Hammered Harpsichord With Soft And Loud" or "Gravecembalo Con Piano Y Forte". The first Pianos were very light to the touch; much less that a K5K or its ilk. But as Piano Volume requirements increased due to the increasing size of Concert Halls, the Piano Hammer had to be made more massive. To be traveling at a good velocity when colliding with the Music Wire, the key travel, or key dip as it is called had to be made deeper, the key longer, the parts it moved heavier, and the amount of pressure required to move the key much greater. Modern Pianos these days and really since about 1875 have been heavy out of necessity to handle producing more sound for bigger halls. We do not have to do all of this work! Where most of have problems is that we would find it musically useful to have adjustable touch contexts for a given voice. I once heard someone say that a big difficulty in Synthesis is that the Keyboard is conducive to people approaching voices like they were "Keyboard Voices" and I thought his point was interesting. I Think it woudld be great if there were the ability to change it for though... Kawai is an Old Piano Maker. I am not at all surprised by their response and personally agree with them. Pete ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive? Thursday, 21-Jan-99 20:48:01 209.21.202.6 writes: Hi Pete, Hmm, are you talking about velocity or after-touch sensitivity? They are two very different things! I can't tell because you go on to compare the K5000W with other instruments like real pianos and clavichords that by definition don't have after-touch (they're not MIDI instruments). Are you sure we're talking about the same thing? I was complaining about the after-touch, *not* velocity, repsonse the K5000W has *after* you've depressed a key (after the MIDI velocity has been registered, what I think you're talking about) and than *then* press down harder on it. *That's* after-touch (transmitted with MIDI status bytes 0xAn or 0xDn, unlike velocity which is transmitted 0x8n and 0x9n) and K5000W offers little control between 0 (no AT pressure) and 127 (full AT pressure). The K5000W seems to treat *any* moderate level of pressure as "full" AT. Other keyboards, even like Kawai's own K4, have a much more controllable response to AT, allowing smooth, controllable transitions between 0 and 127 (or anywhere in between). I actually quite like the K5000W's velocity response. But, the AT response is almost useless (unless you like your AT to act like a switch, which perhaps you do). Matt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive? Friday, 22-Jan-99 19:13:13 12.79.51.11 writes: Hi Matt, I was talking about After Touch too. Specifically go to "Edit\Control\More\More\Press Modulation: Depth1 or Depth2" and there you can also map what After Touch Destinations you want from what is available. I was saying I don't map depth much deeper than I expect the After Touch to end up and that for some musical contexts it is ok. For example, if you set depth to 6 and destination to Pitch you can do quick shakes on the keyboard, sort of like the Clavichord, which does allow you to bend pitch. I do agree with you that at full depth the K5K AT is pretty well useless and it would be nice if there were a setting to map AT just like Velocity has a number of response curves to choose from. Otherwise I think it is a nice Keyboard and the the K5K in general is such a great synth. Since you have experience with earlier Kawai Keyboards it must seem like a real mistake. Pete ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive? Saturday, 23-Jan-99 06:01:23 24.130.38.42 writes: I agree that having different AT curves would probably be quite useful. Adjusting the AT response of all of the individual patches that need it would take forever. Besides, I was hoping to use this thing as my master keyboard, and I would have to change the AT response on all my different modules, which would then make them incompatible with my older sequences and any keyboard that has 'normal' AT. Oh, well, I still love the instrument, but really wish that Kawai hadn't dropped the ball in this crucial (for me) area. Woodie Bud ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive? Friday, 22-Jan-99 19:45:32 207.217.146.179 writes: You guys are crazy. The AT rules on the K5000(s). It's one of my faves. andrew ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive? Friday, 22-Jan-99 23:41:51 209.21.202.6 writes: >You guys are crazy. The AT rules on the K5000(s). >It's one of my faves. I not sure what you mean by "rules" -- but I assume you're trying to express your approval at the way after-touch can be utilitized in K5000 patches. I agree. However, if you read all of the postings in this thread, you'll see that I'm not complaining about what kind of effect you can get with AT when programming the K5000. Rather, I'm talking about the sensitivity of the K5000's keyboard to AT pressure. It offers far too little control over the full AT range of 0-127. This is unlike all other keyboards I've ever seen, including Kawai's own K4!, which I own. In fact, if I play my K5000W via MIDI with my K4, the control I then have over the AT response is like night and day! I can be *much* expressive with AT when playing my K5000W via the K4. So, IMO, the keyboard's on K5000 units is far too sensitive to AT pressure. On mine, I can only seem to get basically 0 (none) or 127 (full) AT responses out of it. I assume yours is the same (based on replies from other in this thread). You like this? You prefer an AT response to behave like a "switch" instead of having a smooth, continusouly controllable range? I suppose if you never really experienced "proper" AT response on another keyboard you might not know the difference. I'm crazy? Well, I think *you're* crazy. ;-) Matt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Re: Re: Re: Re: [Q] After-touch too sensitive? Tuesday, 26-Jan-99 12:14:58 209.214.60.176 writes: Well, naturally, we're all crazy. We're musicians. I am of the approving school when it comes to the K5K aftertouch sensitivity. I play Korg Wavestations and an Ensoniq EPS-16+, and had to work SO HARD to get much response from their (excellent forms of) aftertouch. On the K5K, I get simply fantastic results after practicing for a while to get used to its wonderfully light touch. I've never used the aftertouch as much before on other synth controllers, because of the amount of pressure involved (I'm from an organist's background so I'm used to heavy activity from the fingers not holding down notes. That's harder to do if your holds require a lot of pressure to squeeze the expressivity out of them!) I also like the way I can make the aftertouch and velocity curves work in conjunction with each other. Other aftertouches are designed to have slow initial response so as to not be so sensitive to your pounding the keyboard to get louder (higher velocity) output. I've always found that to be a pain, since if I WANTED to have the aftertouch relate with the velocity, I always had to hit the keys very hard, followed by even more pressure (wrecking the useful range of the velocity parameter for those patches!) Of course, everything is relative to what you're used to or wish to achieve that you couldn't before. I usually look for the latter, and the K5000 lets me achieve much that I never could before. Terry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------